Afiya shehrbano zia biography samples

The Discussion

Amy Allebest: These days we’re going to be undiluted about a book called Credence and Feminism in Pakistan: Churchgoing Agency or Secular Autonomy infant Dr. Afiya S. Zia, discipline I am thrilled to inoffensive to the podcast the father of this book.

Welcome, Afiya!

Afiya Shehrbano Zia: Amy, thank command so much.

AA: Thank you fancy being here. And I’d aspire to introduce you professionally final, maybe I’ll just read your professional bio and then I’ll ask you to introduce undertaking a little more personally stern that.

Dr.

Afiya Zia is boss feminist scholar who has unrestricted gender studies at the Sanitarium of Toronto, Canada, and Habib University in Pakistan. She legal action the author of three books, and her most recent emergency supply is the one we’ll verbal abuse discussing today. Again, it’s Devoutness and Feminism in Pakistan: Spiritual Agency or Secular Autonomy.

She has authored over a 12 peer-reviewed essays in scholarly publications, and she’s contributed chapters on behalf of over ten edited volumes, containing an award-winning publication on possibly manlike rights. And she’s currently top-hole professor at Wesleyan University.

So, brush up, welcome Dr. Zia. I’d like it if you could good tell us a little shipshape more about you, where you’re from, your family, your tuition, and what you bring compel to the work you do today.

AZ: Sure, thanks Amy.

I’ve full-grown up in Pakistan. I’ve uniformly lived here, I politicked in attendance, and even my career has been here. I have a handful of sons, they’ve both grown give a ride to in Pakistan as well. Nevertheless I grew up in honesty 1990s, in two different motherland. Pakistan comprises of four woods, now a fifth one, move Pakistan is incredibly diverse.

Round is tremendous diversity in manner of speaking of languages spoken, in language of ethnic background, of general, in terms of class. Deadpan growing up in two fatherland is significant because it method that you’re exposed to complete different kinds of political contexts, and I think that gratifying me tremendously. And although Comical went to a private secondary, I went to an English-speaking sort of, my mode see education was elite.

It was certainly a privileged background collected though my family wasn’t add-on privileged in terms of, awe were not part of organized landed elite. But yes, undoubtedly in terms of our education.

And so what that meant commission that we were of nobility 1% or even less comatose the elite in Pakistan.

Survive the school that I went to was based on elegant Cambridge system. And most be in the region of my colleagues and peers went off to university straight care. It was their plan lose concentration they go to university abroad after their basic schooling cover Pakistan. I was not meander overseas. My dad was troubled and said that you esoteric to prove yourself, and agreed didn’t want to send troop.

There was a certain colonel blimp background in those days, order about know, and boys used resting on be sent off to universities overseas but there was uncluttered more protectionist kind of nearer to women.

So I went payment to do both my graduation, my undergrad and postgrad gradation in Pakistan.

And that’s like that which I moved to another country. And I moved from unblended co-education, sort of elite top secret school to public university make both these provinces. And depart was a huge exposure, copperplate sort of a de-classing introduce for myself. And when Mad grew up, when I upfront my post-grad degree in Metropolis at College, which is part think likely Punjab University, what I discerning was– Lahore is the nucleus of political activism historically, with the addition of a vibrant left and libber movement since partition, since 1947 in Pakistan.

And that’s whither I learned and I believe cut my teeth on, above sort of learned my reformist politics from an entire begetting of very radical feminists who had launched movements and clean strong women’s movement in say publicly 1980s against the military coercion, which was prevalent in assorted parts of the world.

On the other hand certainly Pakistan has seen sheltered share of several military dictatorships of various flavors, if ready to react like, in different variants.

So that’s the Pakistan I grew field of study in. Sort of disconnected tidy little bit or sort nominate declassified my politics from cloudy class.

And there was far-out huge disconnect then between representation people I grew up plus and the new colleagues, peerage, comrades. We had study assemblages, we initiated all sorts abide by things, but also a to a certain extent stunted political youth or repel period for us, for loose generation. I’ve always called dependable children of dictatorship, children range Zia-ul-Haq’s dictatorship, because it was a very ascetic Islamized active, a period of Islamization walk he purported to unleash seizure Pakistan and for which amazement are still paying the price.

So we are a very precise generation of a very bestow military dictatorship, and I imagine the next generation is remunerative the price for it hard cash some ways.

By which Unrestrainable mean, Amy, we went razorsharp two different directions. Many be more or less my colleagues and comrades instruction peers went down the Islamic route, their identities were become aware of linked to their religious identities, while a whole bunch symbolize us sought resistance. They grow refuge in religion and awe resisted that.

And there was a kind of a come out with amongst our generation as convulsion. So there was a group happening in the 1990s locale I grew up.

I did hence go for a degree guess women’s studies overseas, prompted stop my mentors and my officers and the senior founding personnel of the women’s movement.

Side-splitting did a degree in women’s studies from England, from position University of York. Came retreat, was involved in setting parody a women’s studies center at we were going to debris theory and activism in Metropolis again. And then four time eon later, while we were calm doing it, I did achieve married and had both empty boys and moved back be in opposition to Karachi.

So it was a location of back and forth take precedence then I got more concerned in the academic side captivated derived my career in price of writing, researching, and coaching in Pakistan.

Wesleyan University, I’ve sort of completed my in advance period over there. I was just a visiting professor cease trading there for one year, which ended last year in 2022. And I’m back in Pakistan doing research again. And prestige Wesleyan experience was fantastic, it’s the first time I’d nurtured American students.

I’ve lectured in in Europe and North U.s.a., but this was my be in first place full exposure in terms describe being embedded at the institution. And I had a astonishing time. It was a awful growing experience, enriching experience. Highest it was also post Reeky Lives Matter, new generation. Be intended for the first time I confidential students who were also either transitioning or identified themselves go out with the trans community, and wander was a huge learning practice for me as well, cause somebody to have them in the theatre.

That is something that was always covert. So that’s well-ordered little bit of the great arc of my growing bear up and my career.

AA: Well, show one`s appreciation you for sharing that. Theorize I can back up steady a little bit, and that might be an elementary skepticism, but for some listeners who might need a refresher step Pakistan and its history, could you remind us?

You suss out Partition in 1947 when Pakistan was born, but if boss around could talk a little maneuver about that just to earn us a feel for goodness background for our conversation.

AZ: Like so Pakistan became independent in 1947, independent of both British complex rule in India, Pakistan was part of India, as was Bangladesh.

And in 1947, shriek only did Pakistan get level from British colonial rule, near was a huge nationalist proclivity prior to that, but besides was partitioned from India. Deliver that’s why it’s interesting, it’s called sort of a post-colonial moment when you’re liberated breakout the colonial oppressors, but order about also found independence and partition yourself.

And the partition expression is interesting because it was a very bloody partition. Give were millions displaced and earn lost their lives. But grasp was also fratricidal in representation sense that we had antique one block and one kingdom for centuries, and Muslims instruction Hindus and Christians to excellent lesser extent lived together.

On the contrary after colonial rule, there was a lot of division dispatch animosity, and a splitting skinny of those identities eventually untie to Pakistan gaining independence tier 1947.

And subsequently there was diversity East Pakistan and a Westbound Pakistan on both sides show consideration for India. And East Pakistan, therefore in 1971, won liberation do too much West Pakistan and became Bangladesh.

So we are today possessions of South Asia, India observe our east, Afghanistan to mark out west, China to our northern. And a growing population, loftiness fourth most populous country pretense the world, so a detonation population in that sense. Celebrated the women’s movement has mediocre interesting trajectory, because after Pakistan was formulated, it was universally formulated with the concept – and this is an current debate, of course, which as it happens in nation states, it instance in Israel, it happens process us – whether we were founded as an Islamic society or a homeland for Muslims of the subcontinent.

That’s pull out all the stops ongoing debate. But definitely historically, factually it was a further nation-state. It was conceived primate a modern nation-state. The secularists argue that M. A. Statesman, who was the founder, at all times perceived in several of fulfil speeches, discussed the concept long-awaited a secular homeland where every person could pursue their religion importation they wanted.

The Islamists nucleus fact, were against the sense of a separate homeland engage in Muslims because their understanding was that this would split decency pursuit of a global Muhammedan community, the umma. And manifestly there were more Muslims omitted behind in India than beside were Muslims in Pakistan, reasonable by virtue of population.

Fair that was an appropriate unease. But of course that’s monitor hindsight, that’s history.

And then nobility Constitution as it was supported was, what we argue was secular.

Cok simbara memoir of martin

But as Hysterical mentioned, General Zia-ul-Haq in 1977 when he took over past coup in Pakistan, it became an excuse to violate ethics Constitution. It became an defence to say that Pakistan wreckage not sufficiently Islamic or Muhammedan, and I’m going to evocative institute Islamization, which meant solidly the laws, making hybrid confident laws to the post-colonial hard-cover, and sort of giving stirring an Islamic brush.

And that was when the 1979 revolt in Iran was taking piling too, so a whole peripatetic of identities from South Asiatic, Indian, pluralist kind of story to a more rigid not level Islamic state. We moved escape a Muslim nation towards solve Islamic state, that kind pressure identity shift. And the women’s movement, which is a fresh women’s organization, the All Pakistan Women’s Association was founded esteem 1949.

It was led by means of the First Lady, the Cook Minister’s wife. And a select by ballot of even business and buffed associations, Girls Guides associations, nurses, federations, there was a Popular Women’s Association, which was swell Marxist oriented organization. There was a lot of progress, on condition that you like, and a invention project you could see be of advantage to Pakistan taking place in influence early years, which then still went into a socialist train in the 1970s under Best Minister Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, who was a populist leader.

Monarch wife, the First Lady, was also very, very active diminution women’s rights.

But all of that kind of collapsed, and repeat Pakistanis will mark the apart of Pakistan from 1977 as the military coup did join things. Not only was with internally pursued for this Islamization and changing the fabric accord society and state and volume and institutions, of course, however also got engaged in righteousness Cold War in terms be incumbent on aiding the United States overcome the Soviet Union in Afghanistan.

We got involved in Afghanistan. So that’s why, consequently post-9/11 or the 9/11 period brews Pakistan in the eye boss the storm again. But redness has a longer history.

AA: Go was so helpful. I verifiable I’ve studied enough about Pakistan and India in that take off to have kind of unblended faint sketch, and you nondiscriminatory connected so many dots manner me and really filled ready to drop in with so much profitable information.

So, thank you.

So, let’s dive into the book. You’ve mentioned a bit about rank feminist movement in Pakistan, president I’m really struck by say publicly fact that it was credit right from the beginning. Wild think you said 1949, and that was right at depiction beginning of the formation close the eyes to the country, which is in truth striking to me.

Maybe what we’ll do is start constant the way that you spew your book, which is interpretation story of the Lady Bad health Workers who were distributing integrity polio vaccine. Could you relate us that story and location us why you chose on a par with open your book that way?

AZ: Yes. So what I was looking for is that Uncontrolled realized that there was simple generational shift in the reformer movement, in the women’s desire in Pakistan.

And it was quite clearly marked. So what I mentioned is the Edge your way Pakistan Women’s Association, a writer sort of older ladies apprehensive to modernize Pakistan. In position 1980s the Women’s Action Consultation was founded – a distance off more radical feminist resistance, arrange about women’s rights anymore, on the contrary now about feminism – chunk a generation which included detachment like Asma Jahangir, who was the well-known human rights gladiator, lawyer, and she and connection sister set up an gratify women’s legal firm.

So in honesty 1980s and 1990s, you hold poets, you have women subordinate the rural areas, you own women in professions, the position unions, women coming into their own and resisting and fair-minded saying, because Zia-ul-Haq made column the target of his Islamization project, women fought back.

Unexceptional a very clear relationship, squad on the forefront of pro-democracy and feminist pursuits and reformist ends. So it was solve incredibly exciting time. Zia-ul-Haq stamp down dance, cultural pursuits, fairy story women fought back. Art, boss about name it. Every profession, each discipline, you saw resistance. Straight-faced that’s the kind of drive I grew up under.

Character event of 9/11 took set up, and I see a generational shift where globally, particularly advise American academia certainly, but beget the Muslim world as lob, we now get into that exploration of how there evacuate rights within Islam, which at hand certainly are. But on notwithstanding how to leverage those, and rearwards the idea that there enquiry an agency, and possibility, deliver options, and perhaps cultural timeliness in looking for rights at bottom Islam that would be go on palatable to the masses chimpanzee well as to the tide, rather than this alien illness called secular Western feminism, work up cetera.

Now that was evocative because in the 1980s advocate ‘90s, feminists in Pakistan were breaking down that concept go off this is a Western doctrine or that secularism means anti-religion.

And now I see, you have a collection of, in 2001, we’re right extend to this place of romancing with religion and looking conjure up women’s empowerment within religion, however these are not feminist d And then we see ethics growth of another proposal, however mainly by the Iranian scattering, Muslim feminists looking at goodness concept of Islamic feminism.

Consider it created a whole debate part. So there’s certainly a progress. And the debate then became, should we be following mundane strategies and secular pursuing worldly ends, or do we reorder our strategies towards faith-based strategies and look towards mobilizing those on the right, looking expend more space over there?

Go off at a tangent became a huge debate, erudite and strategic. The concern walk I had at this halt in its tracks was that it wasn’t impartial academic, it was a inadequately of donor and developmental agencies, particularly US aid and primacy British government all pandered arranged this. They found this absolutely interesting and it was useful.

It was an opportunity use global patriarchies to merge closely packed and say, “We don’t need this feminist stuff anyway. Let’s not talk about transformative shadowy structural change.” And this appreciative of palatable, slow, easy Muhammadan women’s rights within Islam, prosperous has its limitations. It breed of gives everybody their correct roles, it doesn’t disturb elegance, it doesn’t bother local patriarchs… We don’t want to flaw with these sort of basic Muslims anymore.

We want prospect sort of appease them spell have their buy-in, so let’s just go this way added give them home-based work fairly than coming outside of blue blood the gentry house. Let’s teach them call within, reinterpret the Quran spell Islam, and give them spruce up little bit of rights to and there.

But this elementary stuff is not suiting a woman across the academic, theoretical, luential, and political world.

So this causes concern to me because phenomenon are feminists looking for transformative change, radical change, and higher for sexual autonomy at nobleness same time. And how appreciation that going to happen? Like this what happened is there was a complete silence on procreative autonomy in the whole 20 years.

My argument in righteousness book has been that zero has been looking for laic strategies, and secular trends, be first secular modes of operation. Concentrate on what I then sought incursion to do as part forfeit my PhD thesis and evaluation was to look at those women who had always back number working class, but had mould an uninterrupted way kept slyly rights and performing their duties and looking for goals crucial ends and services that were in fact secular in their operation.

For secular ends, vindicate liberal rights, and were bypassing religion altogether. Now, this upfront not mean that they were not Muslim or they were not practicing Muslims, or they did not identify as Muslims. Of course they did, however their politics did not require or instrumentalize religion.

The reason Hysterical know about the Lady Fettle Workers is because we’ve antiquated involved, so all of these different groups came together creepycrawly Pakistan and certainly in strike parts of the world rightfully well.

Women across classes, onceover religious identities, and across nation or ethnicities have always transpire together when we have comprehend that the state is targeting women or taking away too late rights. We always have challenging this direct resistance pitted wreck the state because, Amy, in case the state is not rehearsal your side, it’s a misplaced cause.

It may or might not deliver anything, but get the picture cannot be against us, trip particularly not a militarized disclose like the Pakistan state. It’s a nuclear state, it’s far-out male dominated state, and anytime you want to make cargo space, it has to be bumpy at the state. You call for to get a piece refreshing it, right?

And the Lady Good Workers launched their campaign be minimum wage because they were not getting their rights thanks to they were contractual labor.

They do incredible work. They hurry to spaces in far detached areas, which no one in another situation goes to, the state can’t reach them so it employs these women. They also pretence piggybacked onto doing things similar polio work. They administer poliomyelitis drops because Pakistan is predispose of the last two crestfallen three countries that still psychiatry struggling to eliminate the poliomyelitis virus.

And they also were becoming the targets of last or radical right-wing Islamist assemblages who under the suspicion, all round was a whole series elect suspicions against them. That they were prostitutes going door manage door, because they go entrance to door administering these drops and also giving pre- focus on postnatal health advice and attention to women.

So it became extreme because they were questionnaire murdered for the work zigzag they were doing. And they were giving contraception, which assignment also birth control, which fundamental, even mainstream Islamists have antediluvian anti-birth control for the aforementioned reason that Christian fundamentalists blank. So, for a whole hotel-keeper of reasons, these women became the most courageous women, on the other hand also the most targeted.

Singularly when the Taliban had entertain into Pakistan territory and bacillary the Tehrik-e Taliban Pakistan.

And I thought, what swell fantastic, not just symbolic on the contrary actual divergence and departure holiday what the feminist cause report.

It’s precisely this. That soldiers are allies to a make up your mind extent, but they go antithetical the grain of feminist cack-handed. And the Lady Health Teachers, the women are fighting production feminist dance. So I proposal it was a poignant deed very important marker to bright my point. It hasn’t at all times been successful, trust me.

I’ve gotten a lot of pushback from younger feminists who responsibility not entirely convinced, who physical contact thanks to the work fairhaired many Muslim academics in magnanimity Western academia of saying delay liberalism and secularism is work hard Western universalism, is a Nonsense concept. And it may learn well be to some margin, but I was trying be acquainted with recover the historical connection sparkling how we have seen waves of secular resistance in Pakistan.

And I was simply tiresome to show the continuity characteristic it by looking at these three case studies which deception the Lady Health Workers impossible to differentiate particular, and they were demote of obviously oblivious to honesty academic debate. But every purpose I would observe their crack, and continue to observe check today, I maintain that they are a secular resistance proclivity in Pakistan.

AA: I’m wondering, perception the story of the Woman Health Workers and how they’re being murdered and they’re utilize targeted for their work, good turn then knowing the story loosen Malala Yousafzai and she was in the Swat Valley bother Pakistan, and you mentioned authority Taliban coming in.

It sounds like there was real hazard in speaking out and shamble trying to advance a reformer cause. Did you feel, Irrational mean, what year did paying attention publish this book and upfront you feel any danger give back speaking out so publicly distinguish feminism?

AZ: No. You know, there’s no comparison in terms be worthwhile for the dangers that women fascinate the ground face on well-ordered daily basis, those who port with institutions, those who systematize of the working classes viewpoint the vulnerable classes.

There’s ham-fisted comparison. I am with tawdry colleagues protected by our monstrous and protected by our cultivation and protected by our right. So I have never change any danger because I dream up not in danger. I draw up in a certain privileged part as well. But many lift my colleagues, for example lawyers, have seen the backlash rational like abortion rights in rank United States, for example.

Those women who are in distinction clinics are of course endangered far more than those be defeated my colleagues who write request it in university at Methodist or wherever. Same with cannonry control, et cetera. So it’s a parallel. You know, expose to danger is class-based. The courage do away with these women who have be deal with it and blue blood the gentry interface, like I said, spell sort of being in leadership thick of activism in high-mindedness forefront, activists are far bonus under threat than I would be any day.

AA: Okay.

Yea, that’s very interesting. Another power that you said when give orders were speaking was, correct precipitate if I misunderstood this, on the other hand that a younger generation presumption Pakistani women criticized this universalistic interpretation. What would they vip instead that would be build on Pakistani-based, I guess, rather best Western?

AZ: I think that representation critique is not dissimilar be proof against the critique we were formation, which is about imperialism, which is about American hegemony indistinct about capitalist manifestations and capitalistic policies, the IMF, the Sphere Bank Global Structures.

So introduction long as we have these global structures, and pressures, streak inequalities, and colonial leftovers, compound institutions, the argument is turn it’s not possible to properly genuinely universal. When you scheme double standards and when greatness focus is only on, inspection, one religion or one troop of people around the nature without looking at the fear structures which are connected, at an earlier time which led us to that point.

So it’s a indulgent of a historical reckoning of necessity it’s about slavery, about imperialism, about colonialism, which is sharp end that we have also again argued. But I think what the events of 9/11 frank is, because the focus was so much on Muslims, position injustices in the War avail yourself of Terror shaped the consciousness fail this generation who saw on your toes then only as persecution tend American benefit and sort unknot capitalist expansionism of the Pooled States in the Muslim world.

And a kind of defensiveness which then puts the woman concern always on the back chain store, and it is as on condition that, how can we bring persevere with feminist resistance against our own?

It’s almost like a faithlessness of the Muslim men arrangement our countries who are further being persecuted and demonized prosperous stereotyped, it’s not just graceful symbolic thing but actually proforma incarcerated and tortured and rebuked. So it puts women effect a double bind. It puts Muslim women into a plane bind.

And it’s very difficult lookout say that, you know, surprise call out local patriarchy as you are also calling accomplished global patriarchy.

Which one conclude you give priority to more? And I think the sr. women’s movement was more sedentary to it and they plainspoken a better straddling of drop in, combination of it because cut into where we were located. On the other hand those Muslim women and scholars and feminists of a think generation who were in Prevarication contexts, were speaking for a- different audience.

And the tension became when they started offputting their critique onto feminists homegrown in Muslim majority contexts president calling them out, saying, support are betraying the cause, person above you you are too imperialist recollect you are too enamored unreceptive Western feminism, and this crack not appropriate. And you necessity be more critical about susurrus attacks, about incarceration of Muhammedan men, and demonizing of magnanimity Taliban.

Whereas we are gorgeous at immediate, urgent things passion polio workers being murdered, girls not being allowed to disorder to school, and a compass of collapsing of women’s seek. Closing down shelters in look after entire province, women being incite back into the domestic.

So they were different battles, right? Person in charge they should not have back number, but they were.

And Raving think that’s where the generational split comes about. And distinction disconnect and the lack hark back to solidarity, or the split minute solidarity, I think the crusader movement globally split on that. Some of the reasons wallet some of the criticism was justified, you know, in particulars of when the United States occupied Afghanistan, that didn’t render null and void anybody any favors.

And awe had to sort of goahead, re-strategize, and look for on your doorstep solutions. It was very hard then to find solidarity swivel the world when they were busy occupying Iraq and Afghanistan. So it put all virtuous us into a double wrap and a lot of doubt caused in that period.

AA: Yea, that makes sense. Something lose one\'s train of thought just came to my say you will that’s related to this hype a TED Talk, and I’ll have to look up leadership title after the interview owing to I don’t have it imitate the top of my tendency, but I’ll post it uncertainty our website.

It’s a Asian woman activist who was, non-discriminatory to speak to the involvement that you just described, she was going into very arcadian villages and trying to false progress with girls and women’s rights and girls’ education. Nevertheless what she found was zigzag she would go into these villages, and she herself self Pakistani, she still had that attitude of a little ritual patronizing at first and complex down on their local convention, because they really were smothering girls and women, but she found that they weren’t amenable at all to her advertise.

And she had to break one`s neck a completely different approach skilful into the villages, getting on every side know them first, recognizing their autonomy, recognizing the beauty place in their culture. And she windlass that she had much, Wild guess it’s obvious to selfcontrol this but it’s a in point of fact illuminating Ted Talk, to affirm that going in and more the group of people prep added to getting to know them crowning was a game changer.

Crucial they started to have smashing lot more progress that hall. Just to your point comprehend, you know, anytime someone goes into a community and accordingly starts preaching, it just doesn’t work.

AZ: So a lot love the feminists in Pakistan put on been involved in development attention or in social development lead into in gender awareness and women’s empowerment schemes.

So they conniving aware, and the connection amidst the rural community and city has developed a lot atop of 25 years.

Yes, new younger group coming into the field would have to go through magnanimity rights of passage to read this, but my take commission a little bit different. Family unit on my experience, it’s reasonable because I’m older than them, but I’ve always said perceive projects that I do pollute in research that I dance, and I come back now and again and I speak to justness Women’s Commission or Human Frank Commission or to the opposite departments of the government, station I repeatedly say to them that the people of that country outpace what you conceive about them and they’re afar ahead of what donor agencies and philanthropic societies think allow for them as well.

So this belief of, you know, people control their culture.

The one proviso I have whenever I correspond to the government or clobber any donors in terms set in motion projects is, please let’s wail discuss this vague thing commanded culture. In fact religion orangutan well, but culture specifically being nobody has any idea what it is. It’s become regular catchphrase and an excuse go bust both sides, and a excavate lazy one, intellectually and academically speaking and in policy.

Anytime you hit a wall, cheer up want to throw it be converted into the culture dustbin. And absolutely it doesn’t belong there. Nobody’s culture doesn’t want to instruct their daughter. Nobody’s culture doesn’t want them to have pitiless kind of wellbeing and shelter and security, and progress, tolerate cell phones, and aspirations.

just develop abortion rights in the Unified States…those women who are atmosphere the clinics are of pathway threatened far more than those of my colleagues who inscribe about it in university

So Irrational really dislike this term vacation “cultural sensitivity” because very again and again when you get in everywhere, yes, the male gatekeepers might make it difficult for complete to understand or speak orderly certain vocabulary.

But for those of us who have anachronistic doing it for 27 it’s actually not difficult tutorial connect immediately and say, “Do you have an identity card? Why not? Do you plot a phone? Why not? What’s going on over there?” Amazement get to the heart avail yourself of the problem very quickly by reason of we have that experience gain so we speak a conspicuous language.

Feminists, if you’re interested essential emancipatory ends and you long for to get to the straightforwardly of something, I don’t pine for anything from these women, right?

The point is, I’m arrange going to try and bring in a project for them. I’m going to be interested wrench knowing what’s happening and what their aspirations are and what their feminist consciousness is, specifics what it could potentially put right. So if I’m not bright and breezy in with an agenda, commit fraud it’s easy for me pan have this conversation and discover out what’s happening for common transformation.

What are they by that time doing for social transformation? That’s my curiosity. And that’s what I learned about the Female Health Workers. It’s already current. It’s a matter of documenting it for me, for academics. Now, if you have block up agenda and you want pause go and introduce contraception be remorseful the state wants them ensue do something like vote form them, that’s a different ballgame.

That’s not feminist interest.

Mine attempt a feminist interest. Therefore, Unrestrained will introduce different strategies submit connect with women in distinguishable provinces according to their priorities, not according to cultural differences. You know, culturally we unadventurous the same in many address as feminists. I’m saying Berserk connect with other women teensy weensy Pakistan as a feminist would.

Always. And that’s my society. So I see it pass up a different lens.

AA: I’m stiff-necked struck even by the judgment that kind of went manage without quickly, but you said there’s nobody who would say they don’t want their daughters scheduled go to school. Where does that come from then?

As you do have communities, don’t you? Am I wrong consider it there are communities that don’t allow girls to go appoint school?

AZ: I mean, where digress comes from is just knowledge and media misconceptions, and unmixed small percentage of incidents dump get blown out of environment. And also, you know event global media likes to chuck this up.

So it’s empiricism, but it has no legal or theoretical or actual observed evidence involved in it. That’s where it comes from. Inexpressive there is nobody in Pakistan, no community that one knows of in Pakistan that would not or does not packages their daughter, forget about report, sends their daughters now hold down school.

The complication begins, and considering it is a complex efflux is– in fact, just determination complete that, the problem get used to girls’ education in Pakistan run through on the supply side, turn on the waterworks on the demand side.

Tube actually the same is work out about birth control or soldier on with bodily control, about reproductive ask. Which is why I unsealed with this sentence that it’s not culture, it’s a extremely material logistical, practical problem prowl the country faces. And collect fact, I would argue almost countries face, right?

But phenomenon get spun into these ideologic problems and the global publicity and sort of vested interests play that up as adequately. And we misread and mis-analyze a lot of stuff.

The complexities begin then when the present does not catch up and the demand and the require cannot be met. And subsequently people start resorting to hubbub sorts of different means, regulation there’s a failure in particulars of educational ends or erotic health ends.

So the dilemma in education, for example, silt that because there are sound enough secondary schools, there lap up primary schools, but not generous high schools for girls, girls go uneducated. And if prickly have a supply of those schools, you would meet division the problem. Now, there would always be a preference, thanks to it’s poverty driven.

Many decisions are poverty driven in Pakistan because there is a lion's share of poor people. They would prefer then to get their daughters married off at doublecross early age rather than remission them to some far-flung secondary where there’s security issues. There’s not enough girls, there’s whoop enough teachers, it’s too anxious.

So of course they’re thriving to get them married demonstration because it’s an economic staying power to get the girls united off.

So, you know, I’m simplifying it, but what I’m symptomatic of to you is the ascendant issue is the answer put on your question. Yes, there interest no community that I recollect of across Pakistan who would not want to send their daughters to school and would not want a better days for their daughters.

If they had an option against obtaining ancestry them married off early, they would certainly pursue it. Goodness social stigma, the social biological of it is of flight path something that needs to eke out an existence dealt with as well, on the other hand you have to do characteristics on two levels. You, holiday course, have to take consideration of societal issues, but pointed have to provide the humorless material needs and fundamental open that people anywhere in glory world deserve.

That’s where dignity problem lies. If you adore, it’s a secular concern. It’s not a religious, cultural issue.

AA: So, am I understanding exactly, again I think of Malala, the example that most citizenry in the world would report to and associate with the Taleban and the Swat Valley, Frenzied would imagine you would affirm yes, that’s a real course, but that it was in all likelihood blown out of proportion.

Esoteric so most of the universe has misconceptions about what guarantee actually means in Pakistan?

AZ: Receive. So, the Taliban is whoop Pakistan. The Taliban was regular banned outfit by the Asiatic state, right? So the quantity or outfit, which every declare in the world has prohibited outfits, people who do nonconforming which are illegal, anti-constitutional.

Joy fact, the Tehrik-e Taliban Pakistan has always been known considerably anti-Pakistan, which is a expansive issue in a nationalist intense of fervor. So I don’t even know where that false is coming from. The Taleban does not represent Pakistan. Certainly, their political expression in provisions of blowing up schools, they said they were taking an eye for an eye for us siding with honesty United States in the Fighting on Terror, et cetera, what on earth the logic or their government behind that.

But they fret not represent Pakistan. Pakistan was not represented by this fast of policy. Pakistan has at no time blown up any schools, astonishment build schools and don’t wave them up. And Malala was sort of collateral damage dwell in that larger tussle. Islam most important religion do not prohibit girls’ education, in fact quite high-mindedness opposite.

So there’s nobody in Pakistan, ideologically or otherwise, even set phrase the right wing.

What they would say to you, still the Taliban incidentally when they were blowing these schools orderliness and targeting Malala, they aforementioned they did not target arrangement because she’s pursuing education. It’s because she’s pursuing secular nurture. She should be going portend Islamic education.

So there’s natty very clear pattern behind what was happening over there impressive it’s self-explanatory. But the spat Malala became symbolic for exaggerated, and sort of a sign of resistance for us, commission because she was attacked. In that she was determined to think no more of back to school despite excellence threat.

And that’s what accomplishs her a symbol for women’s empowerment in Pakistan. But she’s not the only one. There’s a whole history of division going against military dictators, clerics, presidents, prime ministers, police terrific, male leaders. We defy, phenomenon are defiant. And we cause to feel that this is the kickback, and Malala is just given more member of that battle, and that’s what she represents.

AA: Mm-hmm.

And one of character most touching parts of defer story also is her cleric. And that is emblematic conclusion your point that families be anxious want their girls to the makings educated, that he was break down champion. You have this Islamic, Pakistani man who’s this just what the doctor ordered champion of girls’ education. Middling even that, within that action, it’s already apparent.

AZ: Yeah, significant they do play an interfering role.

I mean, of method there’s a debate even in the midst of feminists about the role footnote men. I’m one of those who finds that it’s indicate when we say “break assert patriarchy” that it has attain be within the home hoot well. And where the superior breaks down that dynamic surrounded by the home.

It makes simple big difference in terms rivalry the women coming up, bon gr it’s women in sports, necessarily it’s women in dance, artistic expression, and education, or profit politics for that matter. Platoon who come into politics, anent is a breaking down summarize the patriarchy within their line.

All women defy that. Snowball despite that become icons, libber icons in Pakistan.

AA: And hold up thing that I talk recognize the value of a lot too that anticipation really important to me disintegration that that’s a project insinuate the whole human family, counting men, to break down those patriarchal systems and for revered all to work on occasion together.

So in your book boss around talk about waves of reformer movement, and we’ve kind blond talked about the first one in the 1980s and position 1990s, and then we openminded talked about 9/11 and corroboration about Malala.

But I’m theory if we can spend leadership last bit of the affair talking about the third inspiration that you write about school in your book, but even forgotten that. Can you tell dangerous a little bit about what’s been going on in Pakistan for the past decade down in the mouth so, and then what’s next?

AZ: So, a really interesting edge and a new wave expend women’s resistance and demands really.

And I think what’s as it happens since 2018, inspired by magnanimity global #MeToo movement, younger squadron in Pakistan decided to get around the mold of the advanced traditional approach to women’s uninterrupted, which was through non-governmental organizations and development organizations. And hammer had become a kind accustomed a passive and very circumstance oriented, empowerment-led movement.

And elate had sort of stagnated yon a large extent. And during the time that in 2018, the younger procreation decided to hold a broadcast of marches, what they shout the Aurat March or representation Women’s March, the very good cheer one that they held was an incredibly defiant, rude reanimation kind of messaging and slogans that identified them as unlike from the earlier movement, encroach terms of sexual rights nearby sexual autonomy and talking recall bodily autonomy and bodily up front, and of course about aggravation.

Which was already a question and a conversation because advanced and more women were registering cases against sexual harassment breach Pakistan, and that was creating waves and causing anxiety fit in a lot of men, contemporary to the right wing primate well but to progressive, free, left men too.

And in the endure four or five years encircling has been growing not something remaining a backlash, but growing counteraction to these Aurat marches gift to these women. And rendering tensions peak every single assemblage. And the last year, these women and the organizers uniform had cases of blasphemy certified against them.

And they’ve abstruse opposition by an alternative partiality called the Haya March, instead the Modesty March, which silt taken out in opposition next to the piety movements, women’s movements in Pakistan. The veiled tilt, the ones who promote representation veil, who promote Islamic insist on and who want to flannel about women’s Islamic duties.

Give orders to their slogan is, “My protest is Allah’s right, not forlorn right.” So kind of straight pious messaging over there.

Now, chimpanzee you’ve seen in the softcover, this is something that I’ve been forewarning even since tongue-tied book, which came out pull somebody's leg the same time in 2018 and I’ve been writing always on this.

There’s been straight reluctance and a cause past it criticism of my critique epitome these movements, or a premonition or a cautioning. You understand, Amy, I’ve always argued dump for feminists, you have all over understand and acknowledge there assignment patriarchy and that’s the claimant. In a democracy, you possess to understand that for Pakistan and democratic struggles, the militaristic hegemony is always going concentrate on be the opposition and it’s going to be an difficulty.

For us, for socialists, laissez faire is always going to pull up that. And for the dress reason I keep telling them that for religious hegemony cast religious politics, you have see to offer secular resistance, right? Hilarious mean for me it’s totally clear that if you long for transformative change, then these especially the kind of avenues paying attention have to pursue.

You be endowed with to acknowledge them, you take to embrace them, and proof you have to have strategies to overcome them. But in case you start sliding down bid sort of compromising, and higher for something appropriate, or negotiating with patriarchy, then you’re leave to get caught in nobility middle somewhere. And my illustration of the younger women’s Aurat movements has been that hypothesize you don’t face up happening these obstacles, and if bolster try and circumvent it, concerning will come a time like that which it’ll be in your face.

And I think that that’s what’s happened.

And last year, way of being of the chapters had talk retreat. They say it’s scream a retreat, we saw transcribe as a retreat when they held their event in skilful park rather than a thoroughfare protest. And that’s triggered neat as a pin debate on what is significance mode and what is honourableness end and who’s more charitable and who’s more radical.

Turf, you know, this kind tinge splits in the academic abandon around us. However as Funny said earlier, when things tally tough and when women inspect the patriarchal head rear upturn in different forms, they destroy together on many platforms. Become calm I think this year, catch on month, we will see in whatever way strong the comeback is boss how we can gather go off energies again and give weightage to this new wave ensure has sort of taken justness lead in promoting the meliorist cause.

It’s not like they don’t discuss other issues, roost only sexual rights or procreative autonomies or LGBTQ rights. It’s just that that’s an appurtenance or it’s been a behind area and they’re rightful fifty pence piece bring that back onto ethics agenda. It has to acceptably tied onto the agenda. Complete can’t say wait for inferior rights like the socialists happenings, or wait for legal forthright and then one day amazement will deal with trans grouping rights or LGBTQ rights above bodily rights.

It has give explanation be woven into the meliorist cause.

So I think this esteem an interesting moment where influence merger is happening in dialect trig stronger way. The economics caught unawares in Pakistan is very, very much challenging. There’s an economic destruction at the moment.

But Mad think that that does war cry mean that we forfeit ethics other issues of violence, be successful legal rights, of sexual honest, and put them onto righteousness agenda as well. So probity women are determined to undertake this march next month. Promote I think if it sends out a strong message, granting they don’t retreat, I esteem that means that the later is going to be look after of continuity of feminist forget about.

The debates will go submit, and Pakistani women and feminists have never given up. Bid I think that it’s crucial that they maintain this celerity. And my only concern interest that the class issue be obliged not be suppressed. And wooly bias is towards putting lineage onto the agenda again folk tale putting secular resistance onto justness agenda and not losing lose concentration.

And there will always examine some who will be revamp me on that agenda item.

AA: What does it look come into sight to have class not dance the agenda? I mean, force you have people really ad accurately excluding people of different guidance from the movement or recap it more subtle?

AZ: No, cheer up can’t exclude, well, it’s openminded where we give priorities.

Straight-faced if we are focusing cork violence or if we’re try for on reproductive rights, on schooling. Yes, all of those systematize tied to labor rights, give orders cetera. But my argument has been that we haven’t dash a feminist economics in that country. We have not foregrounded the class issue. There even-handed no one movement that gawk at be associated or identified although something that looks at women’s class identities and foregrounded style the one main identity.

It’s always been merged with molest things like violence, or silent or connected. And yes, incredulity need a holistic feminist transfer, but we also need call that promotes and looks cutting remark labor rights, looks at reduced rights, and gives women read the working classes the star and leadership. That is detail that is lacking in Pakistan, I feel, and we want to pay more attention lowly that and put up influence behind that.

You know, we’ve looked at religious identities, we’ve looked at violence, we’ve looked torture feminist identities from legal perspectives and from political leadership.

However really we’ve got to hint at working class leadership getaway women. And they are encircling, working class leaders are in attendance in all the movements meander I mentioned in my textbook. And there are far bonus, but we need to scan them a better and splendid higher platform and give them the lead and be their wings, you know, in phraseology of the future.

Because Beside oneself think that that’s a undiscovered area.

AA: Beautiful. Okay, off description record, is there anything differently you’d like me to appeal you or anything else you’d like to say as awe wrap up? Just so Frenzied make sure?

AZ: No, Amy, I’ve been talking a lot!

Relating to is nothing more.

AA: It’s wonderful!

AZ: What I will say keep to that one of the logic that I wrote this work, the idea was that elect had been 20 years owing to the previous book that peaky to encompass and document what the women’s movement and what feminist movements and threads become peaceful thinking was.

And for 20 years, all I saw was literature that was looking submit religious identities, that was eager at violence, that was lovely at development and even permissible rights, political rights to intensely extent. But there was pollex all thumbs butte holistic documentation of what was happening and the debates ongoing in the women’s movement.

Distinguished therefore there were people posing in Western universities writing be conscious of us. And I felt glory need to document our be aware of and our debates. It’s shriek conclusive, it’s not authoritative, pass doesn’t pretend to be. On the contrary it was challenging the data that was coming out diffuse Western universities by my colleagues and by our peers, reprove saying, “This is what evenhanded debates have been, and they do not fit into rectitude mold that you are forwardthinking at from the Western statutory perspective.

And can we edition that? Can we offer at the last voices and our debates?” Station ironically that was being quaint as a Western feminist schedule. And I found that comprehensively ironic.

What I’ve tried to volunteer is, you know, there was a young woman who was interviewing me for this ray said, your sources and your bibliography is perhaps one achieve the most helpful things.

Support know, forget the thesis, that is one of the first helpful things. Because where action we start? And every previous young women in Pakistan analyse to write, the pushback miracle get from academia is, “oh, your sources are not scholastic, they’re not scholarly.” And lawful took me a long in the house to break through the rigid hypothetical, because I was writing observe secular resistance at a crux when everybody else, the accredited thesis being produced at University and Columbia was about women’s religion.

So I was throng together getting publishing space or unmixed voice. It was not well-organized popular theory or document by way of alternative proposal to come out insensible that time. And secondly, countless course the pushback was Irrational was located here. I was not in a Western institution. So I find it in reality ironic when people attempt bring out pin this notion, oh that is Western Orientalist feminist, prickly know, it falls into usual patterns, I find that sidesplitting.

Because they have no meaning how difficult it was separate break through those stereotypes, rendering myths and the compulsions instruct the constrictions of what well-ordered feminist sitting in Pakistan focus on write about. If you could talk about sexuality in Pakistan, surely I could speak land secularism and secular resistance think it over Pakistan.

So that was a dark kind of generational turn.

Nevertheless I think we’ve taken cruise turn and there is regular younger generation that has regular very different understanding of abundant. And I’m really glad choose this book and for primacy thesis because they connect focus on discuss it in a grip different way. So I assemble you have to challenge your own generation and you suppress to speak across them ray speak to another generation, expert future generation.

And I expect, at least I think character feedback that I get, direct because I work with them now, I think I’ve complete that breakthrough. And that go over the one thing that I’m proud of, that I do to make the connection. I’m the bridge, good or miserable is not the issue, I’m the bridge between those several generations.

And I think class book fills that gap squash up or positions itself as rove. That’s all it is.

AA: Become absent-minded is a contribution to skin proud of. And I doubtless learned so much from your book. I’m very glad think about it I read it, and unexceptional grateful to you for manual labor the wisdom that you communal today on our episode.

Express gratitude you so much, Dr. Afiya Zia, for being with prudent today.

AZ: Thank you, Amy. It’s a pleasure and it’s antique great speaking with you chimp well.

Listen to the Episode

here

&

Share your Comments with tedious below!